A $300 PC and SGP

Sequence Generator
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The purpose of this long post is to provide some information about using an inexpensive, mini PC to run SGP and its supporting software components.

As a long time software developer, I have always used high end, desktop PCs for my work, so when my observatory computer failed, the idea of spending $1,000+ to replace it motivated me to evaluate what was really needed to run my imaging software. I was vaguely aware of the “Intel NUC” product line and knew that several SGP users had posted they were using these computers in their observatories, so I decided to do some research on those products. It appears when they were first introduced three or four years ago, they were met with mixed reviews but the new models released in 2017 were getting excellent reviews. So I decided to purchase one of the low end models based on a 1.5 GHz, quad core Celeron processor - referred to as a NUC6CAYH.

Using newegg.com, I ordered a NUC6CAYH, 8 gig of memory (2x4) and a 250 gig SSD drive in the 2.5" Sata III form factor. After a quick assembly, I went to the Microsoft web site and downloaded the free version of Windows 10 Pro, which installed without issue. I did need to go to the Intel web site to get the latest WiFi and graphics drivers, however. The next step was to allow it to download a bazillion Windows updates.

Next I installed the ASCOM platform, SGP, PHD2, ANSVR and the supporting ASCOM drivers for my equipment. Everything installed and configured without a problem. The NUC6CAYH has plenty of connectivity – 4 USB 3.0 ports, HDMI, Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc and everything was setup and configured in my observatory in an hour or so. The first night of imaging, I kept Task Manager open so I could monitor usage data. During a six hour imaging run that included slewing, plate solving, auto focusing, meridian flips, etc. I never saw the memory usage go above 2.1 gigabytes, so a system with 4 gig of RAM would have worked but the second bank of memory gives a bit better graphics performance and RAM is pretty cheap.

I was very happy with the performance of the Intel NUC and was more than a bit surprised at how fast and responsive it was. But to be a bit more rigorous in my evaluation, here are some actual performance numbers that I measured:

  1. Power on to Windows login screen - 7 sec
  2. SGP start-up - 8 sec
  3. PlateSolve2 plate solve - 5 sec
  4. ANSRV blind solve - 15 to 25 sec
  5. HFR calculation (300 stars) - 6 sec
  6. Image Statistics (Sampling 21x21) - instantaneous
  7. Image download - no change, controlled by USB and camera

Buying the entry level NUC was a bit of an experiment but one that had great results. The NUC6CAYH, the RAM and SDD cost me $297.13 but I have noticed some variability in these prices. The NUC has a very nicely made 4" x 4" x 2" case that includes a fan.

The main Intel NUC product line has four levels of performance: NUC6CAYH, NUC7i3BNH, NUC7i5BNH and NUC7i7BNH. The i3, i5 and i7 products all represent significant increases in performance and equally significant increases in cost.

Here are links to the items I purchased:

NUC6CAYH
RAM
SSD

And here is a link to a web site that specializes in evaluating the NUC products:

NUC Blog

Feel free to contact me directly if you have questions about this product and its use with SGP:

  chasmiller46@gmail.com

Charlie

1 Like
2

Hi Charlie!

Would you be willing to see this turn into a more general “Inexpensive mini/micro PC w/ SGP” thread? If so, I’d be happy to contribute my recent experiences setting up and running SGP on a LattePanda.

3

Thanks for the info. I have always used a laptop to run my rig…and have wondered, without doing more than that, what I will do if the present set-up requires PC renewal. These mini PCs have always piqued my interest…your post is of great help … I know I’ll refer back to it again some day in the future.
Thanks again.
Kinch.

4

@gboulton

I have to believe there are many individuals that can benefit from having specific info on equipment related to their imaging interests. So, a broader discussion of this topic seems warranted to me. The controlling PC is a big part of the system just like the choice of mount or camera.

In my research, I ran across several single board computers such as the LattePanda, the UDOO x86 and others that, like the Intel NUC, are based on quad core Celeron processors or other “systems on a chip.” Both the LattePanda and the UDOO x86 cost about the same as the NUC6CAYH when properly configured. The Intel NUC with its excellent chassis and four USB 3.0 ports was the main reason I gave the NUC the nod.

Charlie

5

@Kinch

I initially used an HP laptop with a 17" screen in my observatory and for individuals using portable imaging gear, a good laptop is almost certainly the way to go. I have found that I really like using SGP with a large screen that allows me to keep a lot of modules nicely docked on the screen and the NUC lets me do that. The NUC6CAYH (and the others in the product line) support HDMI 2.0 so a 4K monitor could be used – probably overkill to spend more on a monitor than on the whole PC.

Charlie

6

I agree, Charlie…this is good info for all. Didn’t want to jump in if you wanted the discussion specific to Nucs. :slight_smile:

My own primary motivation was power. My observatory is 100% solar powered, and I wanted a solution that allowed me to leave the system running 24/7, regardless of weather. Minimal power use, while still getting the job done, was paramount.

My solution was a Windows 10 2GB RAM/32GB Storage LattePanda with the Intel Cherry Trail Z8350 Quad Core CPU, and no display. Management is via TeamViewer, and the LP has an HDMI dummy plug tp present a usable screen resolution in that environment.

  • The LP supports both Wake on Lan and Wake on Power, which enables remote reboots/startup should the need arise.
  • Power applied to Logon in TeamViewer : 9s
  • SGP Startup : 7s
  • PS2 Plate Solve 3s (presuming solve on first pass)
  • Total cost : $137 (Including activated Win 10. Can be had for < $100 w/o an OS)
  • Power : <4W idle, 4-6W with imaging ongoing, all gear connected, 6-8W if TeamViewer is connected during an imaging run.

Some considerations :

  • The limited USB (2 x 2.0, 1 x 3.0) must be accounted for. My own setup handles this by using USB over Ethernet to bring USB to the pier. This presents 4 powered USB ports at scope side, off the single USB3 port in the LattePanda. Since they’re powered, an additional passive USB hub can be used there with no problems for most gear if more ports are needed. Currently I have an Atik 414, SX FW, FT focuser, AP Mach 1, and QHY5L-II on USB at the pier, without issue.

  • The LattePanda really suffers trying to do much with its USB 2.0 ports. I initially ran the USBe off one of those, and experienced no end of timeouts from the QHY, dropped coms w/ the Mach 1, etc. Its USB 2.0 ports are pretty much “1 device, no more” ime. I have my roof controller on USB 2.0, but nothing else.

  • The LP is very sensitive to power. It wants 5V capable of delivering 2A. 4.8 won’t cut it, and 6V is too much. I’m feeding mine from a 12V port on a RigRunner 4005i, through an adjustable buck converter outputting 5.2V, and it seems very happy.

  • The 32GB of on-board storage is not an issue generally. I typically see 12-14GB free, even after 2-3 imaging sessions storing frames locally. However, it CAN present issues when MS rolls out large updates, as Windows tends to download and store ALL of these prior to installation. This can be worked around by monitoring old update storage, manually managing individual updates, and so on…but users should be aware that their attention will sometimes be needed in this area. If you’re not comfortable with this sort of thing, then the LattePanda (at least, the 2/32 version…there IS a 4/64 version for more $$) may not be for you.

The LP scores over most of the “larger” minis for me because of its ridiculously low power consumption, tiny size (making it perfect for travel!), and low cost. It’s definitely more of a “gadget geek’s” board, however, imo, and takes a fair bit of tweeking and poking around to really make it happy in our environment.

7

@gboulton

The LattePanda and similar single board computers are often referred to as “maker boards” in that the user has to deal with a lot more deployment and configuration issues than with a typical desktop PC. However, your specialized environment seems to lend its self well the the LP’s features.

Charlie

8

Your NUC is a high powered one! I have run my obsy on one of the Core I5 1Ghz NUCs without issue, with D54250WYK 1.3GHz, 128 SSD 4G RAM, 4 USB3, one display port, RJ45 and HDMI.

My portable setup is even less powered, but equally effective - with a Core M3 Stick, under 1Ghz, with 64GB SSD 4 G RAM, one USB3 & C and a 128GB micro SD card

Both run Win 10 Pro 64bit, TheSkyX, SGP etc. and their waste heat is so low I can install them into a plastic box for weather protection. In both cases I use them with remote desktop from any old PC, Mac or iPad.
(this has the feeling of a Monty Python sketch…by heck, when I were a lad, we just had smartphone strapped to pair bincoculars…)

9

Great information here and sounds like you got a real buy. My concern with w10 is the complaint that it is tough to turn off the updates ( as seen on CN). I purchased a copy of w7 for the day that I have to replace the obs. computer and would be interested in opinions on that subject.

A recent w10 update caused all kinds of chaos for astroimagers just a few weeks ago. Numerous posts on CN.

10

@buzz

One of the things I saw in my reviews was that the 2017 models of the NUC were more powerful than the earlier models. My NUC6CAYH is the low end of the current offerings. Additionally, there is supposed to be another update to the NUC product line for 2018 that steps up the performance again. As far as power, the NUC6CAYH, it is rated at 15 watts of total dissipated power and a fraction of that when idle.

My NUC is running Windows 10 Pro 64bit. In “Pro”, you can use the group policy editor to totally disable automatic updates. This setting requires you to initiate the process of getting updates. “Pro” also supports access using Microsoft’s Remote Desktop.

Charlie

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@Gunny01

I stayed on Windows 7 until last summer but now that I have been using Windows 10, I would never go back. I have been programming “Windows” for as long as “Windows” has existed and, IMHO, Windows 10 is by far the best ever.

One of the issues of staying with Windows 7 is that it won’t run on newer PC architectures because they contain chip sets that do not have Windows 7 drivers. On the 2017 version of the NUC I have, Windows 7 cannot be installed – at least that is what all the reviewers stated. I did not actually try. There appear to be Linux versions that run on the NUC but Intel does not seem to directly support Linux on the NUC.

BTW – you can download and install the “free” version of Win 10 and then use that Win 7 license you bought to authenticate it.

Charlie

12

A big thank you Charlie,

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not that tech savy and I really appreciate that information. I started to do some things with arduino and built a weather station.

Recently, the Mrs. and I entered the 21st century and bought a android based smartphone and I am amazed by its’ versatility. A recent stay in the hospital made me keenly aware of how far behind I was with regard to communication. This has been one of the better purchases that I have made. Problem is the wife and I are conflicting on who gets to use it.:grinning: Guess I’ll have to get my own, since it was her Valentine’s Day present.

13

yes that is very true - the Intel Stick Computer is W10 only but fortunately I can still get W7 drivers for the old NUC model. That came in useful with the recent Win10 update issue in Jan, allowing me to go back to W7 and ride out the storm.

14

Hi

I have setup the NUC6CAYH with all the drivers on Windows 10 pro.
The fine informations in “Astrophotography Manual” helps a lot, also this thread. Thanks Chris.
One Problem remains: Setup the adhoc network
The command “netsh wlan set…=IBSS” forces an error which said that this type is unknown.

Is there a solution?

Thanks for help
Ed

15

A much easier solution to creating an adhoc network (but with a cost) is an
app called “Connectify http://www.connectify.me/.” I bought a lifetime
license a few years ago and it works really well and simple to use. Takes
all the guess work out of manually creating an adhoc network.

16

Ok, but I read that connectify needs Internet access.
My ad hoc network works on the field without the Internet.
Purpose: Connection between Laptop (in the car :slight_smile: and the NUC near the mount.

17

Nope, Connectify does not need an internet connection. I use it in the
field exactly the same way you do. I have an NUC mount computer and I
connect my tablet or phone to the NUC through the hotspot that connectify
creates. Then I use Teamviewer to remote into the NUC.

18

Thanks for your information. Everything is running well, after some loops with the setup.
Best regards, Ed

19

Another chime: I have been very happy with the Intel Compute Stick that’s attached to my telescope with velcro.

It’s only an Atom Z chip and has only 2 GB of RAM, but runs SGP, PHD2, PlateSolve, ANSVR, and TheSkyX just fine under Windows 10.

There are only 2 USB ports (1 x USB2 & 1 x USB3). I also have a rigrunner for distributing 12v and a powered USB hub on top of the scope. I connect to the mount via wifi, so there’s just a single 12v cable coming up from the ground. Everything else rotates with the scope. I control everything via TeamViewer and save my frames on a 64 GB micro-SD card.

The stick PC weighs just 2 ounces and costs only $122. It’s barely visible end-on in the attached picture, velcro’d to the back of the USB hub.

scope - 1
scope - 1.jpg1280×960 444 KB

3 Likes
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Some follow-up info on the Intel NUC mini PC I discussed previously. Intel has just announced a replacement for the NUC6CAYH. It is called the NUC7CJYH and it is based on a dual core Celeron processor. Early reports show the new version is actually lower in performance than its predecessor. This is almost certainly attributable to its dual core processor instead of the previous version’s quad core processor. So, if you are interested in using one of these entry level NUCs for your observatory, I would recommend buying the older model.

On another point, I had a couple of off line queries about configuring a lower cost NUC than the one I discussed. It is possible to drop the cost by using only a single, 4 gig RAM module and by using a mechanical hard drive instead of a solid state drive (SSD). This version would cost about $210. Here are links to the NUC, RAM and HD:

NUC6CAYH
HyperX RAM
Seagate HD

Charlie